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Verena Starfire

Started by mcjomar, March 13, 2016, 10:08:50 PM

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mcjomar

P&M Entry: http://www.the-conclave.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2634.msg35721#msg35721


Verena Starfire
WS: 59
BS: 64
S: 58
T: 57
I: 64
WP: 52
Sg: 49
Nv: 63
Ld: 54

Age: 26 TS

Right handed
Skills: Feint, Dead Eye Shot, Gunfighter, Heroic

Equipment 28mm: Bolt Pistol W/1 Reload, Short Sword, Laser Sight, Refractor Field (disguised as her red/yellow belt buckle)

Equipment 54mm:
Stubber x2 + 2 reloads each + 5 manstopper + 3 dumdum
Short sword
2 smoke grenade
1 EMP grenade
Carapace on chest
Flak on arms, legs, groin

Refractor field?? (as buckle)(maybe not - this time her yellow buckle with red button is square, not round...)


Background:

Verena was born on the hive world of Necromunda. She was raised near the sump levels, and her family were mushroom farmers. They inhabited Escher gang territory, and she looked up to them, recognizing in them strength and power. Her parents didn't appreciate this, hoping that she might someday be able to earn a place in an upper area of the hive, at least in the manufactorum sector.
As she grew up, she rebelled against this life, throwing her lot in with the Eschers as a rebellion against the quiet farming lifestyle she'd known so far. It caused a rift between her and her father, although her mother was more forgiving.
She gradually grew more distant.

Two months after she began to take part in the gang wars that often divided the underhive, her parents were slaughtered by a roving scavvie gang.
For all that she thought she had walked away from them, she found herself bound up in a need to take revenge for the loss of her parents.
Eventually she convinced the other gang members, even their leader, that this gang had gone too far.

They scouted out where the savvies would likely be next, and set an ambush.
What they weren't planning on was that the scavvies were actually Nurglite cultists.
It was very nearly a slaughter.
Only a few of the Fire Sisters gang escaped - albeit with the scalps of the cult leaders hanging from their belts (metaphorically speaking - they didn't want to actually touch the corpses, just burn them).

The fact that they'd taken down the cult reached the ears of Inquisitor Mordecai Vangar of the Ordo Hereticus. He had been tracing the actions of a traitor Ecclesiarch, Byrian Vertnoth, previously of the Order of the Emperor's Fury, supposedly of the Redemptionist cult.

Apparently the Ecclesiarch had hunted too far and too long for rumoured holy artefacts of lost saints, and instead found something else buried below the sump. He came back changed, mutated, and had begun to orchestrate and manipulate the various scavvie gangs, exhorting them to greater acts of aggression and corruption.

Vangar in turn manipulated the Eschers - from a distance - into gradually working with other gangs to exterminate the scavvie gangs one by one.
Eventually he joined them - in the guise of a bounty hunter - to purge the last gang, and capture or kill the now-Arch Priest of Nurgle.

The Fire Sisters had bounced back, and grown stronger with each conflagration. Vangar noted their rage and determination. Citizens driven by rage and purity of hatred against the minions of Chaos are ten a pfennig. Those who have extensive experience in doing something about it are less cheaply bought or found. The combination of experience with weaponry, good experience and hunting and killing the cultists, and the purity of their rage and revulsion for heretics was one that he deemed useful, and in his eyes as a Monodominant, a small gift from the Emperor.

The Fire Sisters had a plan, and had convinced a few other gangs to go along with it.
They would open up the 'front door' with their looted plasma gun ('liberated' being the term).
The other gangs would move in via side entrances, or support the distraction/assault on the front.

The opening salvo worked like a charm, with a the eye-searing blue bolt from Beretha's plasma cannon turning the gate to the scavvie fortifications into a rapidly cooling puddle of molten metal. Kara opened up with her heavy stubber to suppress any particularly brave scavvies or scalies that might decide to charge out the front door.
Qula, Gabbie, and Malora, along with Verena, used the weight of fire as a distraction to slip through the girders, barrels and other detritus surrounding the makeshift fortification in an effort to sneak around the back.

Spotting them, a couple of scavvies threw grenades. Qula and Gabbie were caught in the explosion, but Verena spotted the grenades at the last second, and dived into cover, pulling Malora with her, as shrapnel sparked around them off the metal debris.

The Delaque gang - the Shadow Snakes - who were somehow involved, had begun assaulting from the rear, coming down through vents. Their screams could be heard as they began encountering the hardcore cultists. Some were screams of rage, punctuated by shotgun blasts, and the sound of lasguns firing. Others were screams of pain or fear, usually ending with a nasty sounding gurgle. The Van Saars gang - the Storm Hammers -  who had provided cover fire for that side of the assault were also soon heard engaging the enemy, heavy stubber fire sounding out throughout. Slowly, and increasingly, moaning could be heard.

On the Fire Sisters side, several had also found their way through ducts they had forcibly opened, and guided the Inquisitor into position.

They broke into the scavvie hideout, attracting attention via their entrance, stepping into the middle of a bloody scene. Delaque and savvie corpses were lying throughout the scavvie construction. Another fell to the floor, lit by green witchfire thrown by the rogue ecclesiarch.
The Inquisitor moved the fastest, opening fire with his plasma pistol, removing the last scaly in the building in short order, leaving it with many visible holes through its body as it collapsed. The others soon joined in, pouring gunfire onto the remaining cultists and scavvies that protected the cult leader, who was exhorting them with many dark and foul catechisms.

On the opposide side of the fortifications, Verena and Malora encountered the source of the moaning. Far from gangers left to die in pain, it was in fact a number of shambling corpses - the 'survivors' of the Storm Hammers and Shadow Snakes. Some were vomiting up green bile, while others could be seen with rapidly spreading poxes, and slowly increasing swarms of flies, spreading corruption across the ground as they staggered towards the two women.

Verena elected to retreat towards the enemy base, gunning down as many zombies as she could with her twin pistols to clear a hole, while Melora did the same with her lasgun. They were lucky in that there were only so many Snakes and Hammers to kill, as the others had been torn apart by scavvies, rather than corrupted by cultists.

They managed to steal inside through gaps in the fortifications, and ended up becoming reinforcements for the Inquisitor's group. Several more corpses littered the ground from both sides, and as Verena watched, Gara, her leader, was slain by Byrian, a plague bolt of Nurgle's Rot corrupting her body in seconds. Verena and Malora reacted as one, opening fire on the hostile group, trying to hit the leader, but mostly just hitting cultists who threw themselves in the way of the shots, mindlessly protecting their leader.
Byrian was distracted by the new attack, trying and clearly failing to summon darker magics, or worse, and the Inquisitor saw his chance. Mordecai stood up from behind the barricades and levelled his plasma pistol for one clear shot on the traitor.

"In the name of the Emperor I declare you heretic and traitor, and sentence you to death!".

The plasma bolt flew true, and hit Byrian square in the back of his head. Starfire devoured his head, leaving nothing but a smoking stump. The corpse fell forwards onto its knees, and then to the ground, smoking.

In fury, the gangers and Inquisitor slaughtered the remaining cultists as they attempted to flee, offering no quarter to the heretical foe.

In the aftermath, Mordecai began to consider the situation.
Verena had herself accounted for a number of cultists with accurately applied firepower from her twin stubbers, reacting faster than others in her gang as new threats were discovered in the purge. Her particular zeal, and luck (he would say she was guided by the Emperor's hand) had impressed the Inquisitor, and he decided that the combat skills she had displayed, and her ability to understand the criminal element and the lower classes in general would be of use to him. The same could be said of the others, and he decided that they would serve him better alive, and as part of the various cells he would need to set up across the underhive to track down any further elements of the cult.

As the Inquisitor, Verena, Malora, and the others surveyed the battlefield, they discovered that they were among the last ones to have survived the battle, only a few more Fire Sisters surviving. The leader, Gara Red-Eye was a cooling rotting corpse on the ground - every corpse was burned by the group, wanting to prevent the spread of corruption.

With the Inqusitior leaving them little choice (death being the alternative), Verena elected to join the inquisitor, as did the other remaining members of her gang. Assigning them apparently at random, he organised the others into various groups managed by various cell leaders he had inserted into Necromunda, and ordered them to infiltrate other underhive gangs to begin searching for other sources of archeotech, and surreptitiously for the original source of the corruption, so it could be purged outright. With Verena He wanted her services temporarily as gunhand, and for her knowledge of the underhive, both locally and in general, for her perspective on local criminal or unsavoury contacts, and consultation on their thoughts and attitudes. How much further could this corruption spread? Was this artefact the only one, or could there be more, already discovered? What other Chaos cults existed, and how could they be rooted out? Were Chaos artefacts already on the underhive markets, and how could they find them, acquire and destroy them, and follow them back to their sources?

Together, with other members of his warband, they spent months, near on to a year tracking down sources, and purging locations of suspected Chaos taint and witchery, often playing the part of the loud and explosive distraction, giving Vangar's other agents the ability to move in unnoticed to gather and destroy heretical artefacts, and acquire lost archeotech. Other times they would manipulate or use others as distractions or cheap muscle while they moved undetected to acquire and remove dangerous items.

Eventually, however, events elsewhere required the Inquisitor's attention. When he left Necromunda, his network in place, he kept Verena with him. Verena had seen much, and yet not broken. More than most would expect, even in the sometimes hellish depths of the underhive.
Vangar recognized this. As such, he decided to take her on, even if she was going to be little more than another body in the line of duty - she had already served the emperor well, and her rage and purity could be made to serve Him further.
And she could be trusted to prosecute the secret war in the Emperor's name.

She has since proved his evaluation of her, and looks set and determined to continue to do so - a trusted member of his warband, capable of thinking and adapting outside of a box that would sometimes keep a guardsman or Arbites member metaphorically trapped, while remaining loyal to the Inquisitor.
This may not always be a positive thing, but then the guard are legion (and often executed after a campaign against Chaos so as to ensure purity), and the Arbites are reasonably numerous also, so if their brand of mentality is needed, it is an easy thing to acquire them.


Verena has taken to her duties well, but still keeps a certain style taken from her time as the last surviving member of the Fire Sisters. Her hair, already naturally auburn is regularly died either bright red or orange, and she persists in wearing bright turquoise blue tops or armour, even when it makes little sense to do so.
She will often choose to wear either combat outfits, or outrageous gear that could ordinarily be seen in underhive 'lec-clubs, otherwise known as stomp-grooves, or thumper bars. There are times when such outfits can be useful, often as a distraction.
But when going undercover it obviously can be rather less helpful.

She enjoys finding various forms of gum to chew and pop, especially during combat.
In more peaceful moments she prefers to read about other worlds, and occasionally digs into approved fictions, usually about heroic commissars, or pious preachers.
Growing up she only barely learned to read - in the Inquisitor's service she has discovered a vast world of literature, fashion, technology, and more besides, which fascinates her greatly, and as a servant of the Inquisition and the powers granted it, this gives her much leeway to feed and explore this powerful curiosity for knowledge.

Her investigations into the technology of the Imperium has caused much annoyance to the various members of the Mechanicus cult that she has encountered.
She showed some limited aptitude in it as a ganger, occasionally helping repair recalcitrant guns, and other technological wizardry, and has since annoyed many techpriests to distraction with her curiosity and investigation into various items of the Omnissaiah's bounty. This especially bothers Magos Urial Vandus, another ally of the Inquisitor. He barely tolerates her, and only suffers her presence at Vangar's behest. It seems unlikely that he will ever recognize her, let alone deign to teach her anything - she is not of the Mechanicus. In return she enjoys tweaking his nose, so to speak (though she's never entirely sure if he actually has one, or just wears some sort of augmetic or face mask for appearances - he regularly wears a rebreather, so it's hard to say for sure. She plans on stealing it sometime, so she can find out, but she hasn't ruled out the possibility he might have spares).

In learning about noble clothing, she has been quite deft when one considers she was a farmer's child and then a gang member, often out-measuring the noblewomen of many worlds in an understanding of what is suitable attire (and what looks completely and utterly moronic) - though she blatantly delights in flaunting her disregard for such conduct. She finds plenty of noblewomen and supposed noblewomen to be quite foolish and foppish, lacking in any form of (in her opinion) well-grounded pragmatism of any sort. Thus she (mostly) eschews their clothing. It is rare - almost nigh unheard of - for her to actually wear such things. And she'll kill anyone who says otherwise.

When it comes to noble attitudes, tastes, and mores, learning about not only Necromundan spyrers, but nobles of other worlds too, What she learned has given her a taste for fine foods and drinks - the fact she now has access to such things has truly opened her eyes. The food available in the underhive is sustenance and little more. This is a whole other world of truly fine fare - one she intends to explore fully, albeit while balancing it with maintaining or improving on her degree of fitness. She refuses to be anything less than lethal, and no amount of nice food will prevent her from maintaining an athletic figure. Death to heretics first, tasty food second.
She also refuses to be anything less than lethal on the dance floor, although she has begun to recognize that the poise and grace of an Imperial ballroom could easily be advantageous in a firefight - acrobatic and gymnastic abilities aside, the sheer self-control of the body and balance is something she recognizes could give her an edge in a fist fight. Her improvements in that regard are slow but steady gains - she is more used to the aforementioned 'thumper bars' and the 'dancing' that goes on there, so it will take an effort to break, or at least modulate such habits.

Verena's time in the underhive has taught her a hatred of Chaos worshippers - especially those who follow Nurgle - and to despise traitors and heretics. In the name of vengeance for her dead Sisters, dead family, and the horrors they perpetrated against others besides, she has sworn to hunt down all enemies of the Emperor, and all traitors to his realm, no matter where they might hide.

This belief has guided her into a strength of faith in Him on Earth, and she regularly attends services wherever possible, and keeps her own store of collected works to study from, when she is not training or indulging other tastes.


The Inquisitor has occasionally used her as a "double blind", by having her pretend to be an Inquisitor (much to her clear amusement).
When in such a role, she often carries a bolt pistol, rather than her stubbers, so as to seem more intimidating and forceful.
"Heretics are like cockroaches - annoying to find, and even more annoying to kill." - unattrib.

MarcoSkoll

Her Initiative, Willpower and Nerve are all quite high. Not impossibly so, but she is uncommonly decisive and strong-minded (even by the standards of the Inquisition) if she's only supposed to be 26.

It'll probably balance up in game (although depends in part who else is in the same group); it's more that she doesn't necessarily seem to match her stats.

~~~~~

Background-wise...

If I'm completely honest, "sole survivor" and "saving an Inquisitor" are both in the Big Book of Character Clichés.

I'm not saying it can't be kept; they can be done well and be properly justified, but as someone who's read a large number of contrived and/or unoriginal backgrounds based on either or both, it usually means the background's got an uphill struggle in order to ultimately impress me.

In this case, it would read a lot better if it were written less dramatically. I recognise that the rules section isn't really a venue for discussing writing style, but there's a lot of statements like "reacting faster than they could recognise" that over-exaggerate that section. While there are places where such intensifiers and poetic details can work well, it's best used with moderation (and sometimes actually understating things is more effective), otherwise it can come across more like those articles entitled "They thought she was mad when she bought seventy packs of bagels. You won't believe what she did next"*.
*She probably gave them to the homeless or something. Admirable, but as far as whether I'll find it unbelievable, I slightly misquote Inigo Montoya: "They keep using that word. I do not think it means what they think it means".

(I'll admit that I did use dramatic writing and the "saving an Inquisitor" trope in Leander's background, but as a Warhound titan, sudden interventions with obscene amounts of firepower are actually her job description).


On a similar note, I'd say that "She's discovered books", "She's discovered technology", "She's discovered fashion", "She's discovered fine dining", "She's discovered ballroom dancing" is again acceptable as far as the fundamentals of the background. The writing is a bit "echoey" though. Rather than having to keep repeating that she's discovered new things, it might sound better if you first presented the general picture of how and why her world view has expanded, then went into the details about each of her new hobbies. (I do like parts of the writing here though, like her violent denial of wearing anything fancy).

But I now seem to be drifting into literary critique rather than reviewing background...
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

mcjomar

#2
Yeah, I wrote that at about 9pm off the top of my head, so I really need to revisit it (probably this evening - or more likely ASAP because it really needs to be fixed) with some pruning shears (scissors aren't going to be enough).


++Terrible stream of consciousness begins++
Of the course the real question is "what is it about a character that would give an Inquisitor a reason to retain their services?", which when discussing guardmen, stormtroopers, gangers, scummers, etc then it's a case of "by the handful, they're all mooks anyway, so who cares?".
For Mechanicus, psychics, nulls, etc it's pretty easy to justify. But when we get into generic mooks, we reach a point of "well... okay then?".
Which, from a background perspective, always leaves me floundering. I mean, unless a character is actually special or worthy enough for an Inquisitor to take on to use in the fight for the Emperor's soul, then... well, what are they doing there? The "rosette" gives an Inquisitor access to pretty much anything and everything.

The only thing that really makes a scummer/ganger notable is their local knowledge of underworld contacts, and that's assuming they can be trusted.
How they prove that trust is then another matter again.
But, even if the Inquisitor likes them, once their usefulness is done with on that world, why waste the effort to cart them around with you afterwards? For a Thorian it can be easy - perhaps they exhibited something that shows promise, enough that perhaps they could show a facet of His will.
For a Monodominant? Well, maybe they like mooks, or appreciate the purity of rage against heretics and such.
But again, angry citizenry are ten a pfennig.
But the only thing a ganger whose usefulness has ended the moment the Inquisitor decides to move on has to offer is pretty much just zeal, combat skills, and... well, again there's a lot of both on offer.

So, as above, what I'm wrestling with is "after helping a Monodominant Witch Hunter Inquisitor take down a Nurglite cult, why would he then keep the ganger around?"

The best I've got is one of "he likes the idea of seeing underhive scum redeem themselves with piety and purity of rage against heretics and chaos" or "he could make use of scummer-type skills that soldier mooks wouldn't otherwise have" or "capable gunhands that aren't military or Arbites in nature can often be less visible" or "her ability to understand underworld connections may be useful in more than one setting - psychological understanding, even if intuitive" or "I just like to have people who can shoot straight and she was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time" or "she makes a wonderfully visible distraction to distract people from my presence" or "she's been useful so far, and with more training she can be moreso plus a handy catspaw". After a while I'm hitting the bottom of the barrel though.


++Terrible stream of consciousness ends++




RE: stats, you're probably right, so I think her Wp and Nv could probably stand to lose about 10 points each though, thinking about what you've said.
On the initiative side though, I'm inclined to keep it, as about 10+ years of gang fighting and/or combat-related service to the inquisition would probably force anyone to try to speed up (or stay speedy), especially when they're still that young and nimble (and full of pious fury).
Maybe she'll slow down in a couple of decades (if she isn't dead by then). That and the point is she's supposed to be fast - faster than him, anyway.


Expect incoming fixes based on suggestions so far.

EDIT: minor fixes applied, but advice will still be needed to make the background less... airport-fiction-ey.
"Heretics are like cockroaches - annoying to find, and even more annoying to kill." - unattrib.

Holiad

A few thoughts on reasons for the inquisitor to hire her.

  • 'There's plenty of them' works both ways-while there may be a lot of basic fighters, an inquisitor also needs a lot, and is often in the situation of having to replace them. Perhaps recent events left his retinue heavily depleted, and he hired her to make up numbers. If she later turned out to be short of requirements, it's not much effort to quietly dispose of her.
  • She was the only gang member to survive, which suggests uncommon skill and/or luck, and to People of Faith, like monodominant inquisitors, there's a fine line between 'good fortune' and 'divine favour'(the holy emperor's, in this case).


      • An inquisitor would probably see it as an advantage for an agent to lack strong loyalties to any other imperial organisation such as the guard/Arbites etc. Sometimes connections are useful, but I see them as often wanting agents that are loyal to *them*, and not to anyone else.
      • Having come into contact with an Arch Priest of Nurgle, she's probably seen too much to simply be allowed to walk away. It's either hire her as an agent of the inquisition, or kill her to prevent the risk of corruption.

      Hope that helps a little.
Poor noble Marech
Noone 'till the end could see
Your brave heart of fire

mcjomar

#4
Cheers.

I've tweaked a little more, to add in things referencing him building up a network of agents using the remnants of her gang to infiltrate others in search of archeotech and/or the source of heretical artifacts in the underhive (thus dumping the "lone survivor" trope), while hopefully retaining his monodominant respect for her rage/newfound piety.

But surviving a Nurglite cult without becoming tainted should still suggest some sort of blessing from Him (right?), which when combined with her faith in Him, might still impress, even if only a little, yes?

I probably need to keep my pruning shears handy though.

EDIT: I've tweaked a bit more, but I'm not sure if I've corrected enough to remove the highlighted issues.
Thoughts?
"Heretics are like cockroaches - annoying to find, and even more annoying to kill." - unattrib.

mcjomar

Apologies for the double post.
I've excised the direct description of the battle as being worthless for the purposes of illustrating how she joined the Inquisitor - a general overview is probably good enough, right?
"Heretics are like cockroaches - annoying to find, and even more annoying to kill." - unattrib.

MarcoSkoll

Quote from: mcjomar on March 17, 2016, 09:14:43 AMBut when we get into generic mooks, we reach a point of "well... okay then?".
As Holiad suggests, a "generic mook" doesn't necessarily need to be that special to get taken on in the first place, although they'd likely just get filtered into a cell of agents, a la Dark Heresy. (Getting recruited straight into an Inquisitor's core retinue is another matter, but it can happen as a slower process of promotion up through agent cells). Regardless of an Inquisitor's philosophy, anyone who's shown at least promise can be useful.

An incomplete short story of mine has an agent (an old Dark Heresy character of mine) raise a question about why she's being promoted quite so far up through the ranks (she's being assigned to the retinue of the Inquisitor's Interrogator) given she's only been serving for a few years and her last mission was a total clusterfrak*, and gets told basically "You're not dead. That's better than most of my agents have done in that time".

* Although, to be fair to her, the mission escalating into a major war was not her fault, and she did manage to get at some of her team out alive.

QuoteOn the initiative side though, I'm inclined to keep it, as about 10+ years of gang fighting and/or combat-related service to the inquisition would probably force anyone to try to speed up (or stay speedy), especially when they're still that young and nimble (and full of pious fury).
Maybe she'll slow down in a couple of decades (if she isn't dead by then). That and the point is she's supposed to be fast - faster than him, anyway.
Given many characters have bionics, augmentation and/or rejuvenat that make them just as physically capable (if not more so) than they were in their 20s, despite having combat records that measure in multiple decades, youth is not a guarantee of a high initiative.

To an extent, it's okay to use "fast" as cause rather than effect (that is, as why a character has survived this far, rather than because they have), which is better than justifying it with a level of fitness or experience that's not all that abnormal in the world of the Inquisition.

It is however still normally a level of decisiveness earned through serious experience.

Quote from: mcjomar on March 18, 2016, 02:11:45 PMI've excised the direct description of the battle as being worthless for the purposes of illustrating how she joined the Inquisitor - a general overview is probably good enough, right?
If you don't think the characters see any of the specifics as important, it probably doesn't need to be in there.

That said, I'd definitely flesh out battles when they're significant to the plot or the circumstances are extreme. Someone winning against a significantly superior force, for example, deserves some details about how they did it.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

mcjomar

#7
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on March 19, 2016, 02:35:23 AM
As Holiad suggests, a "generic mook" doesn't necessarily need to be that special to get taken on in the first place, although they'd likely just get filtered into a cell of agents, a la Dark Heresy. (Getting recruited straight into an Inquisitor's core retinue is another matter, but it can happen as a slower process of promotion up through agent cells). Regardless of an Inquisitor's philosophy, anyone who's shown at least promise can be useful.

Hmm.
I guess for a monodominant, the destruction of chaos cults, coupled with the drive and zeal to do so, plus the skills to do so successfully could be a useful quality in more militaristic agents? It's really justifying that initial "I'd like to hire this person" bit, more than anything else.

Quote from: MarcoSkoll on March 19, 2016, 02:35:23 AM
Given many characters have bionics, augmentation and/or rejuvenat that make them just as physically capable (if not more so) than they were in their 20s, despite having combat records that measure in multiple decades, youth is not a guarantee of a high initiative.

To an extent, it's okay to use "fast" as cause rather than effect (that is, as why a character has survived this far, rather than because they have), which is better than justifying it with a level of fitness or experience that's not all that abnormal in the world of the Inquisition.

It is however still normally a level of decisiveness earned through serious experience.

It depends how you look at "Initiative".
The rulebook defines it as observation powers, reactions, agility, and dexterity.
It's safe to say that those last three decrease with age, rather than the other way around - only the last one would increase with experience, and that's only in difference to quality of sight/other senses, which also tend to go down (to a lesser or greater degree depending on the individual) with age.
Children, teens, and tweens will be faster than people in their thirties, forties, fifties, etc.
And only so many people will go into rejuvenat early, especially with the costs involved.
The imperium seems to prefer a "distinguished" middle age in their rejuvenat users - at least in all the fiction I've read so far.
I would suggest, in the case of rejuvenat, that it merely preserves existing reactions and abilities, rather than enhancing them.

Augmetics could make up some of the difference, but only if well manufactured.
If a trained soldier has 50-60, we could argue that a kasrkin would have over 70, being the imperial equivalent of SAS, and stormtroopers will still be quite young (again using SAS as a model) being in their mid 20's (when reaction time starts to decrease).
Which begs the question, is gang warfare and duties with the Inquisition enough to match that sort of training? Or would it be something internal to the person also, that relies less on training, and more on the luck of their genetics - different people have different reaction times, and training can do only so much for this.
Of course, if this level of reaction is part of who she is, would this be a valid reason for an Inquisitor to take someone on into their person retinue? Especially when combined with other factors.

EDIT: to expand on that, if it's a natural part of her genetic makeup, would it be something the Inquisitor would take note of, and possibly consider getting her trained by a death cult and/or eventually an assassinorum temple? Or at the very least by the stormtrooper school of a Schola Progenium?


Quote from: MarcoSkoll on March 19, 2016, 02:35:23 AM
If you don't think the characters see any of the specifics as important, it probably doesn't need to be in there.

That said, I'd definitely flesh out battles when they're significant to the plot or the circumstances are extreme. Someone winning against a significantly superior force, for example, deserves some details about how they did it.

I'd say the battle could be important as to why she might be hired, but the difficulty is in writing it believably I think.
And without leaning on at least one trope (which, for my tastes, is inevitable for every writer, even if they consciously work not to use them - they usually end up using them, or inverted versions of them, sometimes because of their efforts to avoid them). I think it's something I need to come back to though, because this is a battle against a chaos magus, essentially, and his cult, and would be part of how or why the Inquisitor hired her, which I've edited to gloss over until I can write up something that's actually workable.
"Heretics are like cockroaches - annoying to find, and even more annoying to kill." - unattrib.

MarcoSkoll

Quote from: mcjomar on March 19, 2016, 08:34:04 AMThe rulebook defines it as observation powers, reactions, agility, and dexterity. It's safe to say that those last three decrease with age, rather than the other way around - only the last one would increase with experience
The LRB also tells us Leadership represents personal discipline, but other than some rather rough rules about NPC discipline that aren't part of the main ruleset, about its only vaguely common use in game is the Leader skill (which is entirely about influencing others). Its definitions aren't necessarily the be-all-and-end-all here.

In the game, the general concepts Initiative covers (including by the derived stat of Speed) are improved with experience.

A veteran guardsman of 45 might have hand-eye reactions some milliseconds slower than an 18-year-old recruit, and have slightly stiffer joints, but  in a combat situation, he's done it all a hundred times before; he may be slightly slower to start moving, but he knows how to react (no thinking time needed). He's trained at spotting the out of place, he's familiar with tactics (both friendly and enemy), he's had much more practice scaling walls while people are shooting at him and even his improvisation will be more informed by what NOT to do.

By normal community standards, characters have to get quite a few years on the clock before ageing overtakes experience.

QuoteAnd only so many people will go into rejuvenat early, especially with the costs involved. The imperium seems to prefer a "distinguished" middle age in their rejuvenat users - at least in all the fiction I've read so far. I would suggest, in the case of rejuvenat, that it merely preserves existing reactions and abilities, rather than enhancing them.
The processes of rejuvenat are somewhat vague and varied, although it seems to include various mixes of senescence-inhibiting drugs, stimms and surgery.

Once the idea of age-delaying drugs exists, you have to presume that people of wealth are taking them fairly early in life. (Starting to delay the ageing process at 30 rather than 50 buys you quite a few more years, and delays the need for the more invasive processes). And if anyone's going to be going into juvenat early, an Inquisitor and his top agents are definitely top candidates.

In any case, physical appearance does not have to correlate to physical performance. Skin and hair age for different reasons than muscles and internal organs, and repairing one does not mean the other must follow in kind.

An Inquisitor of 200 might well prefer to look in his fifties, with a few wrinkles and a hint of grey in his beard to instil confidence in those around him; someone who seems to have a few years on the clock will be taken more seriously than one who looks inexperienced.
That's not to say that's the physical fitness he would choose though. Internally, he may be sporting organs that came out of a vat less than ten years ago, hard wearing artificial cartilage in his joints, muscles that have been repaired and refreshed down to a cellular level, gene-therapy that's suppressed or removed flaws in his physiology or potentially even made him more than human. (The Imperium is not without quite a few ways of making super-soldiers).

QuoteIf a trained soldier has 50-60, we could argue that a kasrkin would have over 70, being the imperial equivalent of SAS, and stormtroopers will still be quite young (again using SAS as a model) being in their mid 20's (when reaction time starts to decrease).
I'll have to try and remember the source, but I recall that it's not unknown for Stormtroopers to still be serving in late middle age. Given their level of training, they tend to get quite good medical care.

Quoteif it's a natural part of her genetic makeup, would it be something the Inquisitor would take note of, and possibly consider getting her trained by a death cult and/or eventually an assassinorum temple? Or at the very least by the stormtrooper school of a Schola Progenium?
There's a lot more to being an assassin than just being fast. (And, to be honest, that's not necessarily part of being an assassin at all).

Given that her background starts out by talking about her rebelling against order and joining the Escher gangs, she doesn't sound like she's got the kind of discipline needed to be trained as either an assassin or stormtrooper.

QuoteAnd without leaning on at least one trope (which, for my tastes, is inevitable for every writer, even if they consciously work not to use them - they usually end up using them, or inverted versions of them, sometimes because of their efforts to avoid them).
Tropes are not inherently good or bad. If I take one of my characters, Staff Sergeant Silva Birgen, the TV Tropes wiki would have her pegged as at least: Action Girl/Badass, The Big Guy, Red-Headed Hero/Fiery Redhead, Mismatched Eyes, Covered with Scars, Cyborg (and by extension, Artificial Limbs, Super Strength and Blade Below the Shoulder crossed with Retractable Weapon)... and that barely scratches the surface.

The problem is really clichés - overused tropes that lack an original interpretation.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

mcjomar

#9
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on March 19, 2016, 10:57:14 PM
A veteran guardsman of 45 might have hand-eye reactions some milliseconds slower than an 18-year-old recruit, and have slightly stiffer joints, but  in a combat situation, he's done it all a hundred times before; he may be slightly slower to start moving, but he knows how to react (no thinking time needed). He's trained at spotting the out of place, he's familiar with tactics (both friendly and enemy), he's had much more practice scaling walls while people are shooting at him and even his improvisation will be more informed by what NOT to do.

Granted, although I was referring more to an SAS (or even standard) equivalent trained troopie who would have survived at least a decade of both training and experience (not counting the Schola Progenium training previous to this for the SAS guy). With both training and experience, the naturally younger guy is still going to be faster than the one who has to rely on augs and rejuvenat.

I don't see Initiative changing much as age increases, except for a gradual trickle in a downwardly direction (and gradual only due to the augs/rejuvenat).

Your other points are well taken though.

I guess I could drop the Initiative to 64?


In reference to Leadership, the commentary states it's both personal discipline related to following the orders of others, and also the characters ability to command others (hence used for Leader I guess). It's interesting that the rulebook suggests a soldier would have about a 70.

(And the Shyloque profile is quite strong with lots of 70s and 80s at the bottom - scary stuff).


EDIT:
Okay expanded the battle again (hopefully better written this time), and altered the stats.


E:
I was looking at the Feint skill - maybe I would be better off replacing it with:

Imperial Faith
The character mutters prayers of protection and is gifted with some protection from evil.
The character may spend actions issuing prayers, these are speech actions which can be heard 5 yards away. Each action spent praying incurs a -10% penalty to the casting roll of all Spells being used against the character. This effect lasts until their next turn.

I've got a big word doc of old skills, including the rules for PDL, from various sources, though I'm missing "stealth" from the list. This was in it. Would it be appropriate considering her turning to faith?
"Heretics are like cockroaches - annoying to find, and even more annoying to kill." - unattrib.

MarcoSkoll

Quote from: mcjomar on March 20, 2016, 07:50:56 AMI don't see Initiative changing much as age increases, except for a gradual trickle in a downwardly direction (and gradual only due to the augs/rejuvenat).
Personally, I'd say that as in the present day, soldiers, footballers, Olympians and the like tend to be able to remain pretty competitive between about 18 to 35 (and even past that, they're not exactly slouches), it would seem that experience at least compensates for ageing for a couple of decades.

Given that rejuve seems to delay ageing by a factor of about five, it is going to shift the prime for an Inquisition agent later rather than sooner. You'll see fifty year old veterans in the body of thirty year olds (if that), which is going to be a mean combination; something that anyone in the modern day would struggle to match.

Mind you, this seems to be becoming a tangent.

QuoteI guess I could drop the Initiative to 64?
My discussing a point is not necessarily the same as my disagreeing with it.

I'm prepared to buy that she's just naturally quite fast (particularly as some of her other stats got looked at), although a consideration you should keep in mind is her relative to other characters in her group. Standard balance is to only have one or two characters (if any) above Speed 4 in a group (depending on its exact size), so if she's going to be one of said candidates, it does limit the relative speeds of her allies).

QuoteIn reference to Leadership, the commentary states it's both personal discipline related to following the orders of others, and also the characters ability to command others (hence used for Leader I guess).
My point was that the discipline aspect is unused, not that the command aspect is unstated. In any case, it is not always true to the game (or quite how people play it fifteen years on).

QuoteOkay expanded the battle again (hopefully better written this time)
It is better written, although I would question if knowing the names of every ganger and what they did is vital. Some of the details, while fine for a battle report, don't seem that key to why Verena or Vangar ended up where they are now.

QuoteI was looking at the Feint skill - maybe I would be better off replacing it with:
Feint did seem the odd one out of the skill list, although her rebellious attitude does make me feel that faith related skills would probably be more so.
S.Sgt Silva Birgen: "Good evening, we're here from the Adeptus Defenestratus."
Captain L. Rollin: "Nonsense. Never heard of it."
Birgen: "Pick a window. I'll demonstrate".

GW's =I= articles

mcjomar

#11
Quote from: MarcoSkoll on March 21, 2016, 02:14:39 AM
My discussing a point is not necessarily the same as my disagreeing with it.

I'm prepared to buy that she's just naturally quite fast (particularly as some of her other stats got looked at), although a consideration you should keep in mind is her relative to other characters in her group. Standard balance is to only have one or two characters (if any) above Speed 4 in a group (depending on its exact size), so if she's going to be one of said candidates, it does limit the relative speeds of her allies).

Well admittedly she would have been the only one in that band with that kind of speed.
The others would all have been speed 4 (with only the down armoured Sister of Battle provided by the deamon huntress model coming to the upper end of speed 4).

Quote from: MarcoSkoll on March 21, 2016, 02:14:39 AM
It is better written, although I would question if knowing the names of every ganger and what they did is vital. Some of the details, while fine for a battle report, don't seem that key to why Verena or Vangar ended up where they are now.

So it might be better to revert it back to previous glossing over?

As for the names, I figured including little amounts of detail would make it more characterful and believable than just passing right by who some of the people with her were.

Quote from: MarcoSkoll on March 21, 2016, 02:14:39 AM
Feint did seem the odd one out of the skill list, although her rebellious attitude does make me feel that faith related skills would probably be more so.
Granted, but on the other hand, as noted towards the latter end of her background, her faith is something she's recently (since the Necromundan episode) come into.
The past few years or so.
I'm hesitant to throw Lightning Reflexes on anyone anymore due to the issues with it, or I might have considered that as a better option than the high speed.

E: the Imperial Faith skill is one I dug out from my word document filled with skills from various sources. Some are from Witch Hunter, some are old Inquisitor skills not in the LRB. I think that skill might actually be Witch Hunter as it mentions Spells in the description.
Still, it might actually add an interesting dimension to the character, if you think about it - How would a Puritanical Emperor following Monodominant look on someone who is blessed (in their eyes anyway) that way because of their prayers to the Emperor?

I know I'm still missing a few skills from my document somewhere long the line though.
"Heretics are like cockroaches - annoying to find, and even more annoying to kill." - unattrib.