Hormagaunt Idea

[Adlan]

As an idea that's just come to me, how about a "Complications table"?

I like this idea.

To re-cycle an old idea that you and I batted around a while ago, how about using something similar to the "robot programming" rules?

What about something like the old rules nids had for going out of the range of the hive mind? I forget the details, but they'd variously attack even harder, mill about or run away to the nearest cover. A more in depth hormegant specific table might be a good flaw. Maybe it applies when/if the nid fails it's activation/deactivation?

[Brother_Brimstone]

I really like the ideas being suggested here. An idea I was already going to implement was to prepare 3 different character sheets of varying power, and pre-game, have to make a d3 roll to see which applies. i wonder whether this might be preferable to the system of 'flaws' as it involves a lot less rolling and a lot less to remember to have to do, and is generally simpler.

Thanks all for the input.

[Holiad]

Actually, as long as they are kept simple and straightforward, a few special rules feels simpler and easier to remember than three different profiles, and also feels more accurate-hormagaunts are basically cloned after all, so they'd be physically very similar. The 'flaws' would be representing differences in how well the conditioning kept them under control. It's also potentially a lot of variation in the gaunt's abilities, applied at the start of the game and subsequently fixed.

I'd probably give them about S80 & T70 - and that would be rather conservative, as Gaunts are 200 kilos* of optimised bioweaponry!
*Imperial Armour Vol 4

Important question here-optimised for what? Generally, for speed, ferocity, and a suicidal lack of self-preservation, rather than physical power. More than anything else, and certainly more than for individual power, for sheer numbers. Therefore, whilst inhumanly fast, they should be comparatively fragile physically. Myself, I'd go with low sixties as the maximum for both stats

[MarcoSkoll]

I can't agree. If you compare to Terran predators in the 200 kg range such as Lions or Tigers - which of course aren't the hybrid result of the best genetics of hundreds of conquered species going, and are built for self-preservation over lethality - then it inevitably dictates generous physical stats.

High body mass and insensitivity to pain mean a high toughness - there's a lot of flesh that bullets and blades have to cut through to hit vital organs, and a lot of "blood" to lose before exsanguination becomes a threat. (And, given that its size might well dictate some bonus to hit it, it only seems fair that it has a bit of a defence against that.)

And again, that weight means it has to be pretty strong to hit the speeds they're capable of mustering. And even if there is some assumption it's not that strong for its mass, that's still a lot of muscle.

[Adlan]

How much of that mass isn't muscle, but armour plates? If we're comparing it to Terran predators in the same weight range, Lions don't have a chintinious armour plating good enough to deflect bullets, and the corresponding muscle masses will be different.

[biggreengribbly]

How much of that mass isn't muscle, but armour plates? If we're comparing it to Terran predators in the same weight range, Lions don't have a chintinious armour plating good enough to deflect bullets, and the corresponding muscle masses will be different.

Surely with all the extra mass of said armour plates, it would need even *more* muscle power than a comparable Terran predator to move that extra weight at the speeds it is capable of?

[InquisitorHeidfeld]

The original Tyranid Warriors (from the Advanced Space Crusade box) had a seperate "ribcage" to allow the organs beneath it to be painted easily and to show through the gaps.

It could be argued that in optimising lethality (concentrating muscle in the limbs...etc) the torso and the organs are the first to "suffer" - The trunk will get most of its flexibility from its spine so you may as well concentrate the muscle there...

There's also the factor that (given their metabolism and athletisism) their organs might be significantly larger than might be expected for "animals" their size and therefore easier to hit, not that there's a lot of wasted space inside us but...

[MarcoSkoll]

@Adlan: I think biggreengribbly put it quite well.

Something three times the weight of a human that moves faster and more agilely than a human is going to HAVE to be stronger than a human, regardless of how much of that mass is dead weight. As I doubt many people would bat an eyelid at giving a physically fit human character a strength and toughness in the low 60s, it sounds like completely underselling alien predators which start about twice as long as those same characters would be tall!

It could be argued that in optimising lethality (concentrating muscle in the limbs...etc) the torso and the organs are the first to "suffer"

In the case of Terran vertebrates, the muscles relating to the shoulder are all built across the thorax, so you wouldn't have much arm strength without that.

Now, you could say that these are not Terran creatures, so they don't necessarily follow the same rules, but in practical terms, placing the muscles more distally (using distal in a loose sense here) would be poor in the extreme. It would increase the mass of the limb relative to the muscle power available (limiting speed, acceleration and agility) and also result in a more complex than necessary circulatory system.

As all 'Nids are designed, it seems a long shot to argue they would use such an inefficient system as one where none of the strength of the limb comes from muscles in the torso.

[Adlan]

How much of that mass isn't muscle, but armour plates? If we're comparing it to Terran predators in the same weight range, Lions don't have a chintinious armour plating good enough to deflect bullets, and the corresponding muscle masses will be different.

Surely with all the extra mass of said armour plates, it would need even *more* muscle power than a comparable Terran predator to move that extra weight at the speeds it is capable of?

Well, I'm not arguing Stats here, and after a certain point, I think this is killing kittens (using physics in a magically thinking universe kills kittens). I am inclined to see a hormegant as pretty powerful. But probably not 100+ powerful (which I know wasn't suggested, but would be where I'd put a Lion, or at least in the 90's).

[Holiad]

Actually, gaunts also don't have armour worth speaking of, and move as fast as they do largely by being pretty lightly built. Twice as long and three times the size of a human is a serious overestimate of their size-even genestealers aren't depicted as being much larger than man-size, and gaunts are if anything a size down from those. Slightly above man-sized would be about the upper limit, and unlike other tyranids they really aren't exceptionally strong for their size.  

The important thing to remember here is that while fighting tyranids might indeed be superhuman in their physical capabilities, gaunts are *not* fighting tyranids. They are the tyranids which get put in front of the genuine fighters in vast quantities to use up their opponent's ammo. This does, in fact, make them a good candidate for the concept of a 'tame' tyranids, since their mental and physical limitations make them a lot more controllable. So while I admit that even tyranid cannon-fodder would probably be the equal of a trained fighter, they really shouldn't be too far above that.

[MarcoSkoll]

Twice as long and three times the size of a human is a serious overestimate of their size

Imperial Armour Vol 4 gives a Gaunt as 0.2 tonnes, and a 40k gaunt model is about as long as a typical Inquisitor model is tall. So, my numbers, while fairly rough, are at least within the canonical ballpark.

Of course, the stats do ultimately depend on Brimstone's model, but assuming it takes up a "character slot" in game, it's perfectly reasonable that it has the punch of something like an Arcoflagellant - and those start with a generous S & T even before it gets boosted by combat drugs!

They are the tyranids which get put in front of the genuine fighters in vast quantities to use up their opponent's ammo.

Not really. That might be how they're used in games of 40k, but in the fluff, they largely run around on their own causing massive havoc. The ones that the Hive Mind lines up alongside a normal horde are a minority.

[InquisitorHeidfeld]

Ignoring the size creep which has happened, particularly in Tyranid type models over the past... how ever many years, the Original Hormagaunt model (the Geiger-esque one flipping the mother of all birds) was about the same size as a 'stealer purestrain - lighter and more limb-centric but about the same height/length.

Purestrains used to be described as standing about 7 feet tall - and they're hunched, their torso almost horizontal for the most part, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to see them at about 10 feet at full stretch.


With regard to muscle attachments:
While in an endoskeletal organism it makes sense to place long muscles attached at the sternum and the humerous to do much of the work it makes less sense in an exoskeletal organism.
Because the exoskeleton restricts the space available and because long muscles have a greater proportional variation through their contraction cycle they can be detrimental...
Whether Tyranids are exoskeletal has, throughout their development, become more in doubt with each new model - but it might provide an explanation.