Demons?

[Darios]

So what rules and stats would you use for demons... the rules in the rulebook don't feel right for "real" demons, and not the classical demonhost.

as i have a bloodletter and a horror in my collection (to be seen in my modelthread on this board) and i would like to use them in games i am in need for ideas how to do "demons"
they should be a hard bit of work for my players (as they appear in the concluding szenario of the actual campaign) and i will probably acquire another bloodletter for this... (so i can focus on khorne only and use the horror another time or unleash pure demonhorror by having 3 of them roaming around...)
any ideas?

[Kaled]

This question seems to be cropping up quite a lot recently, so once again I'm going to reuse the answer I gave a few weeks ago (apologies to those of you who've read it already).

GW printed rules for daemons in the 2004 annual (I forget where they originally appeared).

However if I were GMing a game featuring a daemon (or two) as the climax to a campaign, I'd want it to be a titanic battle; one where the players are constantly thinking 'Will we be able to kill it in time?!' and half the PCs are bloodied and broken before they finally manage to defeat it.

Therefore I wouldn't bother working out a full set of stats for the daemon(s), I'd just use my GM powers and make it up on-the-fly. Of course, I wouldn't tell the players that's what I was doing - I'd have some notes on a bit of paper and keep ticking things off whenever it took damage etc so they thought it had stats like a regular character; but what I'd actually do would be to make it tougher if they seemed like they were going to beat it too easily, have it start doing less damage if I thought it was going to overwhelm them too quickly and so on. That way there's no chance of a lucky shot killing it before it has chance to strike the requisite fear into the players, and you can make sure the players really have to work to destroy it. The better the player's strategies, the more chance of success I'd give them - if they did something boring like hide and shoot it in the back then the shots would patter off it's skin like rain, but if they did something cool and exciting then I'd be more likely to let their plan succeed.

If you do that, then you're going to get a really exciting, cinematic battle and the players will realise that taking on daemons is not for the faint hearted.

[Charax]

So what rules and stats would you use for demons... the rules in the rulebook don't feel right for "real" demons, and not the classical demonhost.

I'd use my own. I should probably get around to reposting them at some point

[Darios]

so annual 2004? any chance i can get these rules as pdf?

@ kaled: your idea is good but i'm one of the kind who likes to have all settled down and clear to see ^^
besides i often reuse such things and therefor would like to make a real character sheet for it...

[Kaled]

I don't believe they were ever made available as a PDF, but you can often find the annual on eBay.  The rules were pretty generic though; they just covered general categories like 'lesser daemon' with a note saying you should adapt it as necessary to get a specific type of daemon.

[InquisitorHeidfeld]

I wish I'd thought to keep copies of the old Character indices.

First things first:
What's the daemon's name? What event coallesced warp matter into its consciousness? What event brought it to Manifestation in the "real" world? What plans does it have to subvert that even in order to drive forward its longer term schemes? What are its longer term schemes? How do they contribute to its long term goals?
If it's a Khornate daemon then what is the name of its Blade Brother? Do the two share the same goals? Do they share the same conception of how to acheive those goals?

What is the history of this immortal? What is it's character? How has it already influenced the path of the campaign? Has it a champion among the other characters involved? Is that champion aware of its influence? By means of what events has it guided the (potential) champion to the place and attitude it needs them to be?


Just to clarify...
A daemon; particularly a lesser, prince or greater; should be a character in its own right - they aren't simply monsters to throw at an Inquisitor for whom you have few other ideas.
They are immortal beings with little to do but plot and scheme - and as such they're quite good at it...

For stats you should consider a Bloodletter to be comparable to a Space Marine, somewhere around 150 for their strength and toughness... a Prince or a Greater should probably not have stats of any sort - at the scale we're working they're godlike and should be dealt with in ways other than direct combat.

[Inquisitor Cade]

Hmm, there was an exterminatus article about 'unbound' daemons. Without access to it I'm just going to throw my thought down.

I'd say they are immune to system shock and unconciousness. If their damage totol ever reaches their full toughness then they are unsustainably damaged and leave real space automatically. Otherwise I'd say that it is all about their instability. They need to take a Wp test every turn as per the banishment power (if they fail they take D3 damage per point they failed by, and if they roll more than double what they needed to pass they are sucked back to the warp. I'd say that their damage total is a negative modifier to this Wp test. They may re-roll the Wp test if they are near a sustaining source, e.g. an appropriate ritual, a chaotic relic or a weakness in the real-space / warp-space boundary.

All daemons would also have regenerate, impervious, ambidexterous and fearsome. Some will have other demonic exotic abilities and some will be terrifying. Force of will and nerves of steel would also be probable.

For the bloodletter I'd say something like:

Ws . Bs . S . T . I . Wp . Sg . Nv . Ld
80 . 60. 90. 70. 70. 70. 60. 100. 70

ceramite carapace armour (equivalent) on chest and abdomin (though the new models indicate that this is optional. A standard close combat weapon (ussualy falchions or great axes) with gnawing, bound, and potentially other daemonic abilities. This equipment will return to the warp with the daemon weilder.

Frenzy, furious assault, nerves of steel. Maybe invunerable. razor sharp claws

Horror I know less about, but they hurl fireballs right?

Ws . Bs . S . T . I . Wp . Sg . Nv . Ld
60 . 60. 70. 60. 80. 80. 70. 100. 60

Catfall, Wyrd: fireball, burning fist and blinding flash. razor sharp claws

[Darios]

mhmm for the abilities i had much the same in mind as you, cade.
but terrifing should be in there for all demons... it's 40k and the sight of these... things.... is often too much for mere mortals.

i thought about adopting the idea of the invulnerable save from 40k... something linke: d6 forcefield on all locations... representing the raw energy of the warp which makes the deamons form...

the stats for the bloodletter seem a bit weak to me... i also think it should be in the regions of aa space marine (though BS might be a lot worse)

[Inquisitor Cade]

Do you know the Space marines rules by Lord Inquisitor on Dark Magenta issue 1? Unless my memory has failed me the Bloodletter is about as strong as a Space marine, and has a higher weapon skill.

Not all daemons are terrifying in my opinion. Admitadly they would be to the likes of you and me, but then we would find almost any Inquisitor or henchman at least fearsome. The lesser daemons are not going  to be terrifying to the battle hardened characters who participate in gamess of Inquisitor, whereas a bloodthirster would be.

I think the daemonic invunerability is better represented by immunity to system shock and unconciousness. Maybe some Tzeentchean daemons would have psychic shield too, but I don't think it is something that all daemons have.

[Charax]

Aha! found them.
Bloodletters:
http://thebook.isgreat.org/Daemons.html#Bloodletter
The rules for Chaos Items and their abilities are here:
http://thebook.isgreat.org/Items.html
and as for the actual Daemon's abilities?
Bestial face & Horns are in the Alien Generator rules, I'm sure Marco will link to them for you.
Metal Body: D3+4 armour. Because everything a Daemon manifests is basically part of his body anyway, it doesn't particularly matter where the armour physically is.
Cloven Hooves. Add 1 yard to all movement values, cannot sneak, all movement regardless of distance has a hearing range of 15 yards

There we go. I really need to clear out these old files.

[Kaled]

What's the daemon's name? What event coallesced warp matter into its consciousness? ...

My first thought when reading this lot was that it may all be utterly irrelevant depending on the scenario being played - the characters involved may well not know any of those things, and hence there's little need for the GM to know them (especially if he's the type who will happily make such details up on the fly if it does comes up in the game).

Not all daemons are terrifying in my opinion. Admitadly they would be to the likes of you and me, but then we would find almost any Inquisitor or henchman at least fearsome. The lesser daemons are not going  to be terrifying to the battle hardened characters who participate in gamess of Inquisitor, whereas a bloodthirster would be.

I think Terrifying is perfectly appropriate.  The difference between you or me and the battle hardened characters we use in our games is that they have far higher Nv values - there's no need to downgrade a daemons level of scariness.

[Darios]

q kaled: i thought pretty much the same... *g*

[MarcoSkoll]

GW printed rules for daemons in the 2004 annual (I forget where they originally appeared).

Exterminatus 5 I believe.

[Kaled]

Close... it was issue 6.

[MarcoSkoll]

Okay then, I can't remember what issues of Exterminatus I have.

I did misplace that issue some time ago, which is disappointing, but somewhat inevitable given my normal state of tidiness.